Context - A poem by Peter Rhebergen


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Facebook Post, April 7, 2021

Regarding the physical closure of Grace Life Church in Edmonton:

First - Why should we expect a Godless nation to respect His institutions?

Second - Given that the founders of our faith freely and joyfully forgave their persecutors, why are so many of us complaining so loudly? Following our Lord's example, wouldn't this be the time to love those who harm us?

Third - Even if this is the beginning of the sanctioned persecution of Canadian Christians (which I don't believe it is) it cannot destroy our faith, it simply provides a better opportunity to show the world what a Christian is, let's be sure we show it the right stuff.

Fourth - We're bound to disagree with each other, loving correction is of far greater effect than blind criticism.

Fifth (added several days later) - God is so much BIGGER than any of this that rejoicing in Him should be a slam-dunk, a no-brainer and the most natural thing in the world for us as Christians to do.

The world is watching, let's give it something worth seeing.

Well written. Thank you.

Yes!

You can forgive those that persecute you, give a good witness, and still fight for the right of God's people to have access to corporate worship to practice Biblical obedience. Jesus used a whip to give people access to the Temple. No debate, just my thoughts.

Pete Rhebergen

I - I'll just say this in response: The reason Jesus gave for driving them out of the temple was that they were disrespecting God.

It's time for the body of Christ to grow a backbone and start demonstrating some serious civil disobedience in light of this tyrannical shutdown. The closing of Grace Life Church in such a manner is something that I would expect to see in Communist China or Soviet Russia, not in Canada which is supposed to be the True North Strong and Free!

Pete Rhebergen

M - No! Civil disobedience is not what Christians are supposed to do. Whether this is the start of planned persecution or not our response to it must always be one of love. The only backbone we need is the one that helps us live as close to Christ as possible.

A few years ago I signed the Manhattan Declaration which was an effort spearheaded by the late Chuck Colson. Here is a part of what its says: "Going back to the earliest days of the church, Christians have refused to compromise their proclamation of the gospel. In Acts 4, Peter and John were ordered to stop preaching. Their answer was, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard." Through the centuries, Christianity has taught that civil disobedience is not only permitted, but sometimes required."

Pete Rhebergen How do you feel about Christians who disobeyed the government and hid Jews in their homes?

Pete Rhebergen

M - Christianity may have taught that but the Bible never has. What the Bible says will be evidence of our faith are these: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Pete Rhebergen

L - Totally in support of them.

Pete Rhebergen

L, I and M, I'd like to know why you are so determined to have the Bible say something it doesn't.

Pete Rhebergen we could ask the same of you.

Pete Rhebergen I guess there’s a disagreement on what the Bible says. The solution might be to ask God and see what He answers. Aaron Rock’s church has had 62 conversions and 69 baptisms in the last few months since defying the shutdown orders. And most of the churches that disobeyed have had similar results. How many conversations and baptisms have we seen in churches that closed?

Maybe the answer is in whose work God is blessing.

Pete Rhebergen

I - Perhaps you can show me where civil disobedience is sanctioned in the Bible because I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Pete Rhebergen I will render unto Caesar those things that belong to Caesar, but under no circumstances will I render unto Caesar those things that belong to God. Caesar has taken away the worship of God that belongs to Him. I am not going to obey Caesar.

Pete Rhebergen

There may also be some differences in our definitions of civil disobedience; some could see it as any act contrary to the will of the gov't (such as Peter and John or hiding Jews) while others see it as any act of open rebellion (such as violence). God's law always trumps man's, yet sometimes they walk the same path.

Pete Rhebergen

M - But he hasn't, he's merely said to take care of those around us, which Christians should already be doing better than anyone else

Pete Rhebergen There are so many but here are a few. Daniel opened his windows to ensure all could see him praying. Paul was lowered in a basket to evade authorities. The apostles continued to preach when ordered not to by the Sanhedrin. Moses was hidden by his parents. The Hebrew midwives disobeyed.

Pete Rhebergen I don’t think any of us are advocating for violence.

And the Bible is full of civil disobedience: Daniel, Acts, David, Elijah...

Pete Rhebergen

I - Those are good examples but I've never seen them as civil disobedience so much as just being Godly people doing the right thing.

Pete Rhebergen

L - Some of 'us' are, or have been

Pete Rhebergen I believe the Grace Life Church is also Godly people doing the right thing.

Pete Rhebergen This lockdown is not about taking care of us or for our health. It has become patently obvious that there is another agenda at play here to take away our rights and freedoms. If we do not take a stand now we will lose them.

Pete Rhebergen

I - Perhaps, perhaps not. The optics of it were bad, though. Hard not to look at them as being selfish and unconcerned for the wellbeing of their neighbour. But the rightness or wrongness of that was not what my initial post was about but the rightness or wrongness of our response

Pete Rhebergen

M - So? My rights and freedoms are almost the least of my concerns.

Well, I’m not.

I do think it’s becoming more obvious as to how the different methods of “caring for people” are yielding fruit... or not.

Which church that has been closed has had 62 conversions or 69 baptisms?

Pete Rhebergen

This has been interesting but I need to sleep, night y'all

MH as case counts rise rapidly, deaths continue and ICUs are at capacity, that argument has little basis anymore M.

If one views other nations who have successfully returned to 'normal' we in fact did not do enough fast enough to stop the initial virus and now deal with the inevitable variants.

We could, as believers, set an example for others of love and care for our neighbours by living sacrificially as we are called to do in Romans.

Instead we have been seen as selfish and having little regard for others.

Nobody is being told to stop preaching, they are being told to stop meeting in person, big difference. There's a bigger audience on the world wide web, so one could argue the opposite, that they are being told to take their message to a wider audience.

RC When we are being told that there is going to be a vaccine passport which means that our freedoms will be limited without it, then there will never be a return to normal. When our Prime Minister announces that the COVID-19 crisis will be used to usher in The Great Reset (a socialist economic transformation) then there is no intention of a return to normal. Romans 13:3 says “For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval.” The issue now though is that we have a government that is calling good evil and evil good. They will allow and even encourage riots where there is no social distancing but when the people of God assemble for worship without restriction then the government shuts them down.

Pete Rhebergen

M - The ruler under whom Paul lived when he wrote these words was Nero, our own leaders are amateurs by comparison .

Pete Rhebergen The Church still met in defiance of Nero. They disobeyed the state and they obeyed God.

MH many of your points are not proven M and part of a larger conspiracy that implies our leader has both the skills and ability to do that - which is highly improbable. He can’t balance a budget let alone understand what he has to do with the Covid approach.

The truth M? Some people are using this as a means to propagate their opinion not fact.

The government is in minority and likely won’t fair well in an election.

What we do know that is not opinion or conspiracy is that if we all followed the rules that were presented there would not be the level of community spread. Ajax is the highest in Durham and perhaps we need to stop worrying about conspiracy theories but look at the effects of choices we are making now.

IF people had followed the requests originally presented we would be back to the ability to meet freely and have the life that we enjoyed. As it is some have impacted the ability of all to meet.

God meets us where we are at. We can worship anywhere and with our families. The Govt can’t take that away.

Let’s battle the real ‘enemy’ which is the community spread of Covid.

Not an imagined conspiracy that includes a Prime Minister capable of far more than he is able. People are giving him far too much credit.

MH the Church during the Spanish Flu closed and it flourished afterwards.

Let’s take that example.

A highly contagious virus was killing people.

Churches closed.

The virus was knocked out and people were vaccinated and the churches reopened.

To greater numbers.

Pray for that and work toward being prepared for the influx.

My thoughts.

RC Pete wouldn’t answer my question... maybe you will. Does 62 conversions and 69 baptisms in the last few months prove that Aaron Rock’s church (which has remained open) is taking the wrong approach?

Pete Rhebergen

M - You missed my point entirely, Paul was telling the Roman Christians to be subject to Nero, despite his being an evil man. He was not telling them not to meet. Our own leaders are not telling us not to meet but are instead telling us to meet within certain limits to restrict as much as possible the spread of a disease that is killing people.

LK no L. But it also means that they have exposed all their congregation to a deadly virus as well as their family and friends and neighbours.

‘Closed’ churches are seeing the same work happen and in large numbers.

We must remember it’s not an open church that saves but an open heart and the Holy Spirit.

It would be interesting to know the impact that such a church has had on community spread, as well as how they have impacted their community with such a negative and selfish approach to the request of the health department.

Pete Rhebergen

L - Sorry about not answering your question, I was tired and needed to sleep. I would say that 62 conversions and 69 baptisms is a good thing but these facts in isolation of any others do not prove anything other than conversions and baptisms continue; as they do in churches that have continued to operate within gov't guidelines.

LK and if they ‘must’ meet why not do it within the restrictions provided with multiple services?

How many do they reach with their online presence?

The ones that need to be saved. The ‘unchurched’ who don’t go to church in the first place?

We see that our video stream is reaching globally and to homes our building never would.

The church building is for the saved who attend - the gospel has the power to use our testimonies and witness everywhere but are we doing that?

That is what we will be judged on.

Not our attendance but our witness.

Pete Rhebergen Thanks Pete. Ok, do we know how many baptisms and conversions WHBC has had in the past few months?

Or is there one church in Canada you could name that has followed the restrictive guidelines and has had results like Rock?

RC The difference between now and the Spanish Flu is that we are being moved into a system where our rights and freedoms will be taken away from us. Things will never go back to the way that they were pre-COVID. We are entering into a period akin to 1930s Germany where the state is going to rule every aspect of our lives.

RC What influx? How many converts has Westney had in the last year? What makes you think anyone in the community sees Westney as anything but an empty building?

LK wow.

If it’s a competition then I don’t think I will engage further L. I know we are having baptisms planned at Westney and that in fact other churches have had extraordinary results without opening at all.

Again. The Lord working through his spirit. Not an open or closed church.

Can you tell me about their community spread and the dishonour they have brought to the name of Christ?

That is eternal value and likely won’t be seen until the Bema seat when we are all judged.

Have a blessed day.

IH and again. There have been conversions and will be baptisms.

Just because you don’t see the work I doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

It’s Faith being worked out, not attendance.

Have a blessed day.

MH so you say M.

I have heard this from very few people and sadly the largest falsehood in your comment is that you compare yourself and me to Germans in 1930.

The Germans went along with the Govt in 1930 leading to the holocaust.

That’s what you are saying average Canadians like me will be like.

I thought you knew me better than that.

Pete Rhebergen

L - I wasn't aware that the number of conversions and or baptisms was the determining factor in the effectiveness of a church (Jesus' parable of the Sower comes to mind). My only purpose in my initial comment was to say that the world is watching us and our ministry will be affected by our response to the closure of that church in particular and to COVID in general, regardless of our feelings either way.

IH MH LK There are baptisms in the works at Westney. Watch for the videos. They will be online shortly.

Pete Rhebergen

L, I & M - Having spent a good deal of the night praying to be able to see things as you see them and finding that I am still not able to I am bowing out of this conversation; life is calling and I must live it.

RC It’s not a competition... but if there are churches with extraordinary results, I’m just asking for you to name one. And what are “extraordinary results”?

Pete Rhebergen The restrictions placed on the church is not about health, it is only a pretense to keep it limited or closed down. If our government truly cared about the health of the sick and elderly it would not encourage euthanasia.

LK how many other churches have you spoken to?

I know one that remained closed even when they could open and had many conversions and are planning baptisms.

Is it possible that this church has advertised their numbers to gain support for their ‘disobedience’?

Odd that those numbers are being showcased to ‘prove’ they are ‘right’.

How many did they have in 2018 and did they advertise it?

2019?

Very very strange.

To your point, as I noted, many churches have seen souls saved.

They just don’t announce the numbers

LK clearly to you it is.

As you haven’t taken the time to do the analysis yourself to truly understand the way the Lord is working, I can name churches but quite frankly it’s a waste of time.

It won’t make a difference to you anyways because you have no intention of changing your opinion.

Which in effect does make it a competitive situation and one that’s quite frankly beneath the Spirit.

Do the work yourself to educate yourself and you’d learn that the Spirit is working without needed to advertise.

Those churches haven’t “advertised” their numbers but feel free to call them yourself.

Start with Durham.

They are there.

RC I was not implying that you were anything like that, it was not my intention. What I was saying is that there is a deception happening that we need to be made aware of. This is about more than just a virus it is about a total transformation of our society. I would encourage you to watch this video from Eric Metaxas in which his guest who is a tech expert describes how the vaccine passport will be used to bring in a Communist Chinese style social credit system. https://youtu.be/WBaOCQeMt0k

YOUTUBE.COM

Naomi Wolf Sounds The Alarm On Vaccine Passports And A Social Credit System In America

RC I was asking you to educate me.

Yes, I have been asking locally about numbers actually.

You can’t tell me what my intentions are.

I guess I won’t get any answers here. Have a good day.

LK you were asking me for proof or numbers.

If you had called churches in Durham, you would know the numbers.

You are using numbers to justify their disobedience. Making it a competition and a way to ‘prove’ they are right.

If you really thought the numbers mattered you would educate yourself through your own efforts to educate yourself about how other churches have seen an impact to their evangelism.

At the end of the day you can get the answers. You just have to call churches that don’t advertise because to them it isn’t about the numbers.

MH for compliance to occur on the level of the 1930s Germany most Canadians would have to be obedient and complacent. By your comment you include me and yourself among those who sat by and watched evil happen.

This isn’t that.

Have a great day M.

RC I would encourage you to watch another video in which Eric Metaxas is interviewed. Eric is a very astute student of history and has written about what did happen in 1930s Germany. He is seeing the parallels between that period of time and what is happening today. I hope that you have a great day too Rob. https://youtu.be/oU6FAl6LJXA

Calgary Pastor Pushes Back on Lockdown Orders | Eric Metaxas on Newsmax

YOUTUBE.COM

Calgary Pastor Pushes Back on Lockdown Orders | Eric Metaxas on Newsmax

It’s a pretty simple question: can you demonstrate that churches who have been complying have had their work blessed by God in the same way that it seems churches who haven’t complied have. It is in fact an important question because if we’re asking God which is correct, He may be answering clearly with whose work He’s blessing and whose work He isn’t. Real, measurable results that are dependent entirely on the Holy Spirit are a reasonable gauge. Evading the question or giving vague circular answers isn’t helping us understand your perspective RC

MY nor is asking for numbers that other churches have not advertised.

They don’t feel it matters to their effective evangelism and they also don’t think it proves their approach was correct.

They were obedient and the Lord works.

IF that is the only ‘gauge’ then why does it only matter now and not when we aren’t in lockdown?

It’s taking the work of the Holy Spirit and reducing it to mathematics.

If it matters that much to your opinion M call and ask.

Those who have connections to other churches and discuss such matters have seen the work of the Holy Spirit and the power of the work of Christ on the Cross without having to compare ‘numbers’.

The decision of a church is up to the board and those leaders have to acknowledge before the world and Christ why they did what they did.

Constantly attacking leaders neither edifies the body or the witness to those outside.

Pete Rhebergen

If the proof of God blessing a ministry is the number of its conversions and baptisms then I'm in serious trouble since my number is exactly zero. My initial post was intended to be an encouragement, but because of this discussion it has turned out otherwise.

There’s no attack. It’s simply pointing out facts that seem to be relevant. You said you knew churches that have done extraordinary things during the pandemic, but when asked like who or what you won’t say. Then you say that seeing the Holy Spirit work through some and not others is no indicator of anything and we should just gloss over that fact. I think when we look at the Bible and how numbers grew daily and churches were planted everywhere, it’s safe to say that when the gospel goes out, we expect to see results. If we see no results then we have to consider that the work isn’t being blessed for a reason. That shouldn’t be an offensive subject. I see clear evidence that those churches who you suggest are in disobedience to Gods will are in fact being blessed by Him. Would God bless the work of those in sin? So it’s a fair question to ask to see the fruit of the other side is it not?

Pete Rhebergen I’m no John the Baptist either, but if Jesus said the Harvest is plentiful, isn’t it a fair question to ask ourselves why we’re not reaping if that’s the case, especially when others seem to be bringing in a massive haul?

Pete Rhebergen

M - You present a logical and intriguing point yet I'm fairly sure that Elijah, Isaiah and Jeremiah might have been tempted to be jealous of what John the Baptist and the apostles accomplished. That point also runs counter to the Bible, which nowhere teaches that the number of one's conversions and baptisms is a sign of God's blessing of their ministry. And please, before you respond to this post, remember that there are people reading these posts who are fragile, who have not converted anyone and who are barely hanging on themselves; please show some concern for them in whatever you choose to say next.

MY people aren’t fish M.

And to claim that this church is being blessed because of their stance is not biblical or logical.

How long were these people attending the church and what are their testimonies?

What were there numbers in the past if that is your metric?

The ‘attack’ comes in the subtle form of consistently arguing with fellow believers and judging them and churches by their ‘numbers’.

Numbers are not a sign of a ‘blessing’ of a church my friend.

Nor does it demonstrate the irreparable harm that has been caused by those opposing the government and bringing scorn on the name of Christ.

As noted elsewhere if the initial rules had been followed and there had been more ‘sacrifice’ for inconvenience this would be over now.

As it is, it goes on and people who meet in large numbers without masks endanger themselves and their neighbours.

Common sense says that as a witness goes, that’s a pretty awful one to have.

Especially when other religious groups are complying.

For your consideration.

That’s the beauty of Christians: we’re supposed to be different than other religious groups, we expect to be despised by the world according to their common sense.

Pete, Old Testament prophets had a different purpose than the Church has today and so I’d suggest that it’s not really a sound comparison to make. Jeremiah for example was telling of the already decided fate of Israel and not trying to change them.

If you guys don’t see a connection between spreading the gospel and having people come to Christ, and don’t give any thought to why God is using other churches that you say are in sin and not those you call righteous, then I think that gets at the root of where we differ and that’s not going to go anywhere. I believe God is giving us clear messaging of where He lands and directs us to His gospel and His truth and not the gospel of media propaganda about irreparable harm and other worldly nonsense. I hope that God will soften hearts to see what being a faithful Christian really looks like, as opposed to being a faithful citizen of the world. God chastises those He loves, and I fear and have hope that He is using this pandemic to have us bring about our own chastisement as we fall away into uselessness. After all, if salt loses its saltiness, what good is it but to be trampled by men.

I don’t think this is going to end well on Facebook, but if either, or both, of you want to talk face to Face over a coffee, I’d be happy to.

Pete Rhebergen

M - You have said that the ministry of those with fewer conversions and baptisms is less effective and you can't throw that off by saying "Old Testament prophets had a different purpose than the Church has today." That they did is true, but both the Church today and the prophets of the OT (including John the Baptist, by the way) have the same purpose: To rescue people from sin and claim them for God.

Pete Rhebergen

I have a question for you, L, M, I & M: Assuming that the church in Edmonton that was forcibly closed was doing the will of God by operating at full capacity despite public health guidelines, how does that reconcile with Peter and Paul saying that the Christian should be subject to the gov't over them and with Jesus not disputing with His own gov't except on points of doctrine? What I see in that is open rebellion against both God and man but you apparently see something else, what is it?

Not to be cryptic Pete Rhebergen, but I'll answer that with another question.

Consider when the 30-day edict came out that nobody could pray to anyone but the King in Daniel 6 (I think). With three options to choose from (pause praying for 30 days, pray in secret, pray openly 'as was his custom'), why did Daniel choose to pray openly according to his custom even though there was no doctrine issue or compulsion to sin?

MY first off no one can judge a church as to if it is righteous or not except God.

Second, Christ called for the making of disciples not converts M.

We are to be different.

We are to be better and more loving showing the amazing grace and love of Christ.

Knowingly jeopardizing others and inciting others to disobey the Govt during a Pandemic accomplishes nothing more than sullying the witness of others and creating division in and outside the church.

By bringing ‘competition’ into discussion the way it has been done as a measure of ‘righteousness’ is infantile and does nothing but create more confusion and wonder about the effectiveness of the witness of churches.

Not at all what a faithful believer should be doing.

As much as I don’t want to engage with conversations about the church that was disobeying the lockdown orders, I would like to say this in regard to the mention of ‘conversions’ that have taken place at the church. That’s a great, nice number, however do you think that they may have attracted people to come to the church that are simply in agreement with disobeying the lockdown orders? And this: How many people do you think that they have turned AWAY through their actions? For example, I myself feel hesitant to ever step foot in a church that is full of people that won’t simply wear masks during a pandemic. I know many people that feel this way. Many of my friends make comments about some churches and how they perceive their actions to be ignorant and selfish. 62 conversions though? Great. But just HOW MANY people have been permanently repulsed by churches? People with sick loved ones, people with loved ones who have died from covid (or those who are suffering from the long term health effects). I can guarantee you that the number of those types of people is infinitely higher.

It's a good point to consider ES. My opinion is two-fold:

1) I have to go on the facts I know rather than the facts I don't. There are many what-ifs that we could come up with, but we have to come to conclusions based on information that we can see. People don't go to church for many reasons, with or without COVID, but they follow Christ only because of the Holy Spirit. So I would err on the side of what God is doing rather than what people aren't doing and follow that rather than the other.

2) Whatever attracted people to Christ is hard to say, but the end result is that those Churches showed an alternative to the world and that was attractive, and that God worked in these people through that. God could certainly work through a closed church as well. The question I'm raising is this: Why do we see a pattern that the churches that are in defiance are consistently showing good fruit while the churches that are in compliance are effectively not doing anything?

Pete Rhebergen

Very cryptic M, not sure at all how to respond other than to say that the order to pray to no one but Darius was very much a doctrinal issue and a compulsion to sin. That Daniel continued to pray "as was his habit" indicates courage and faithfulness of a high order. That aside, the issue of Daniel and Darius is not at all what is happening here so I don't know why you brought it up.

Could he not have just prayed in secret or 'paused' prayer for 30 days?

Would that have been sinning?

Pete Rhebergen

M - Perhaps praying in secret wouldn't have been a sin at all. Perhaps Daniel continued to pray openly to throw down the gauntlet and challenge, as it were, those who would harm him and, by extension, God.

MY you continue to indicate “good fruit” and I hasten to suggest that no one knows the quality of the fruit from mere numbers that have been provided by the very church in defiance.

Christ wants life long disciples. Not numbers.

That’s why your use of those figures displays a lack of understanding about why simply stating numbers is a waste of time but more dangerously something that divides churches and confuses those outside looking in.

The work of the Holy Spirit and Christ goes beyond walls and numbers.

You may be surprised to learn (if you really cared enough to do that work) that there are indeed other churches that have seen growth, not only in numbers but in terms of the walk of faith people are making.

MY they have also shown an alternative to the world that is VERY unattractive. I myself am repulsed. I’d love to gather concrete numbers of the people I am referring to, but that would need to be collected through a mass survey. I guarantee you that people are disgusted and repulsed. I myself am. Not everybody and their body has the luxury of ignoring health protocols and mask mandates. Some churches have shown those people that their church is not a safe or welcoming place for them. I am very Un-attracted. All my friends are un-attracted. I have not a single person in my circle who is now attracted to church after these maskless services during lockdown. That is my point. What good is attracting a couple dozen people if you are simultaneously repelling hundreds of others? That is a rhetorical question, as I am not looking for a response from anyone. I just ask that you consider the harmful effects that this has caused on people’s perception of church as a whole.

So Pete Rhebergen, if we compare today's situation to Daniel's we can see some pretty interesting parallels I think, especially with this latest lockdown order. Daniel was told to adopt the customs of Babylon, the government was on his side (the king loved him), he wasn't being compelled to sin (as you would say we're not), he was a representative of God to the culture, and so on...

We are told that for 30 days or so we can't meet as we were, and we also have 3 options: Stop gathering (as we used to) for 30 days, gather in secret, or gather openly in defiance as was our custom.

What are the differences between Daniel's situation and ours today with respect to whether we are to follow God or the world that would give you reason to take an opposite position? By today's standards, you could call Daniel's actions irresponsible could you not?

ES . People have been repulsed by the Gospel for centuries. I'm not sure that's a good indicator of right and wrong is it? And it's because the Gospel message is so repulsive to the world that it is so powerful.

That's not to say that everything repulsive to the world is good, but it's certainly not a judge on its own...

Pete Rhebergen

M - Not only are you ignoring my question (see above) but you're mis-comparing Daniel and his gov't with us and ours. We have not been told to pray to Ford or to pray to Trudeau or to in anyway change our worship other than to reduce the intensity of our attendance so as to minimize the potential spread of a disease. If you cannot see that the Daniel and Darius situation is vastly different than our own (orders of magnitude different) then I really don't know what to say other than that it seems very much that you're interpretation of this part of the Bible completely misses the point.

Just trying to lay some ground-work. The point of bringing up Daniel is that the 3 examples of disobedience are different angles of the same principle and it's back to what M said earlier: Give to God what is God's and to Caesar to what is Caesar's, and don't get the two confused. Otherwise, going back to your question, it's difficult to reconcile why Peter would say what he did in 1 Peter 2, but then also disobey the government when he escaped from jail or refused to stop going to the temple to preach the Gospel. It would also be difficult to reconcile why Paul said what he did in Romans 13 but then escaped over a wall, evading arrest - even James Coates didn't do that. So either those guys said one thing and did another (and thus were hypocrites), or Daniel, Peter, Paul and many others in the Bible saw that we should give to the government what is under their jurisdiction but not let them take authority over things that are not under their jurisdiction, like prayer, worship, preaching, etc. These Biblical examples have been given to us exactly for this type of situation, so that we know how to behave. The Holy Spirit is also confirming this by blessing ministries of those who are giving to God what's His in faith. The unanimity of the World and 'other religions' further confirm to us what faithful Christians should do. Every angle you look at this, there's a strong case to be made that the churches should not be yielding what belongs to Christ and should be defending the 'essentialness' of his Church.

This would go great with a Tim Horton's Coffee Pete.

MY okay so it’s fine to further repel people from church, because they might’ve already been, and people have historically already been repulsed. Got it! Continue then. What a wonderful plan. Deterring sick, immunocompromised, and otherwise vulnerable people from attending a church because they don’t feel safe or that their life is of value to others.

Pete Rhebergen nobody loves their stats more than the Salvation Army. And I can tell you truthfully the numbers of the people being served in our food banks, thrift stores, local churches and Christmas assistance programs has vastly increased as a direct result of the Pandemic. At the same time we had closed down in person services and camping to protect the people we minister to. Our Territorial Commander is encouraging use to seek innovative solutions to ministry in this climate and we as an organization are strictly following health regulations but that doesn’t stop us from serving God and our communities. But we don’t baptize so its probably all for not. (This is me agreeing with you, if that wasn’t clear)

Pete Rhebergen

M - Actually, I don't believe that these examples support the idea that a Christian church has the right to defy government limits on gatherings. As I said earlier, Daniel clearly could not pray to Darius, to do so would be a sin, so he couldn't. Peter could not avoid escaping from prison because it was God who was opening the door and to stay behind would have been a sin as well. Peter and John could not obey the Jewish council because they had to preach the gospel. Nor could Paul stay in Damascus because God had already called him as the evangelist to the gentiles and he hadn't yet been able to go. (This itself is very similar to God's asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, he couldn't avoid it but he also knew that Isaac was the child of promise and knew that even if he killed him Isaac would be walking back home with him. Paul knew he had to go, so he went (but look also at what he did at the end of Acts.)) None of these examples give us an excuse to be careless with the health of others just because God has told us to not neglect gathering together. Again, the gov't isn't telling us not to worship, not to evangelize, not to pray to God but only to be careful and to care for our neighbour. Surely this is something that we, as Christians, should find a very easy thing to do and which we should, as Christians, be very eager to do.

Pete Rhebergen

Nicely said, B, thank you. I love that idea of "serving God in our communities," this is exactly where the gospel is supposed to be.

Well Pete Rhebergen, if you believe you're effectively fulfilling our mandate as a church, and others believe they are fulfilling theirs by making disciples then let each continue as they see fit and let God correct any error.

One of us is hardening his heart and sees but doesn't perceive, and hears but doesn't understand. May God humble the stiff-necked one among us.

Pete Rhebergen

M - Or each of us, as needed

ES - Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me [A death march]. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Calvin, during the bubonic plague, preached many funerals which led to many people being saved, despite the personal risk to himself (which was significantly higher than that of COVID).

MY you need to realize these are real young people expressing deep concerns. It disturbs me greatly that your lack of concern for my young adult daughters spiritual well being, because it’s not convenient for the argument, is expressed here so clearly. This should be a huge issue. It certainly will be for our family. I trust that the adult generation will serve your own children with something better than comments like this.

TS, could you kindly explain what you mean? I’m not sure I understand which comments you’re referring to.

Pete Rhebergen What I see is that Peter and Paul are telling us to obey the government in civil matters but that does not mean that we have to obey them in matters of faith and practice. When we are clearly told to meet in Hebrews 10:25 we are told to do so “...all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” Taking a look around the world right now it looks like that day is almost on our doorstep so we should definitely assemble together without restrictions even more than pre-COVID.

ES the inmates that pastor Coates met at the prison actually respected him for his stand and came to him for spiritual guidance and bible study. They certainly were not repulsed by what he had done. They actually all banged on their cell doors as he was leaving (the warden said he had never seen that before) Just wanted to point out that not every unbeliever sees things the way your friends do.

Pete Rhebergen

M - You have misquoted, they said "be subject to" not "obey". There have also been many days in history that have looked far closer to that day than today. And as for our gathering together, that has not been stopped and Hebrews, while telling us to gather, nowhere tells us how many; Jesus said if as few as two were gathered He would also be there.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6920e2.htm Here is a report of a church gathering in Arkansas where 35 of the 92 church attendees contracted the virus as a result of church gatherings, and THREE of them died.

CDC.GOV

High COVID-19 Attack Rate Among Attendees at Events at a Church ...

https://www.healthline.com/.../indoor-church-services-are... and here is an example where an outbreak caused by the gatherings at the 'United House of Prayer for All People in Charlotte' in North Carolina resulted in 200 cases spread, where 12 people died. People DIED because they went to church. How hard is that to recognize and understand? That is UTTERLY disturbing. You will not die if you DON'T physically go to church during a pandemic. But you might cause the death of someone else if you do. I am truly flabbergasted that people are Facebook comment warriors, blasting off in the comments about how they want to do what they want to do when they want to do it. Do we not ACTUALLY care about peoples lives, like we pretend to in other areas of our life?

HEALTHLINE.COM

Indoor Church Services Are COVID-19 Hot Spots: Here's Why

Pete Rhebergen

E - Your father spoke to me of courage, but I think his comment may have been better aimed at you.

There was a grocery store outbreak in Southern California last year. Shouldn’t we stop eating too?

There was an outbreak at the Woodbridge LCBO, shouldn’t we shut down all of the liquor stores too?

C What good is this if people have died from COVID-19 as the result of church gatherings? I don't understand? Is it okay to go against health orders and mandates if only SOME people die? How many would it take for it to matter? Not enough people died for it to matter? What if it was YOUR loved one? I know a couple people right now who are desperately missing theirs. Perhaps they would be sitting with them this evening, enjoying a nice cup of tea, but instead they are 6 feet underground in a casket because they couldn't breathe. How would you feel if you knew that people died as a result of your decisions? I wouldn't sleep at night.

MY I think it goes without saying that yes, eating and obtaining food is more essential than going to church. Considering that yes, you will die if you don't eat, but NO you will not die if you don't physically attend church on Sunday. As for shutting down the liquor stores, yes, we should. They are not essential and should not be open. What kind of questions are these? Lol.

ES I do know what loss is. My father passed away on April 20th of last year. He broke his neck and was alone in the hospital for 3 weeks. It happened during the first lockdown. Not even my mom was permitted to visit. For 3 weeks!. He was on the rehab floor where there of course were zero covid cases. He could barely talk so we didn't even have the luxury of a proper phone conversation as it was so hard to understand him. We were told he was fine and would be coming home soon. They were sadly mistaken. He had 2 heart attacks in a row and was unconscious and on life support ...My mom was allowed in just an hour or so before they pulled the plug. I comfort myself in the fact that all that loneliness he must have felt is long gone as he is in heaven now with the Lord. I do not for one minute think that the gov't mandates were loving towards my dad or thousands of others that could not say good bye to their dear ones. And as for my mom who is still alive, she wants to live life and not be isolated from everyone. God is in control of our lives. He is sovereign and life and death are in his hands not ours.

People are dying of neglect, loneliness, suicide (has increased x3 times?) post postponed or cancelled medical appts and surgeries because life has come to a halt with gov't mandates. I read of a senior in a home that asked to be put to death rather than go through another year of isolation (and they granted her request). People are fearful and lonely. They need love and community not separation. At the end of the day let it be an individual choice for all if they want to isolate themselves or not. This is love. ❤

C Sorry to hear about your father, C. I have never agreed with or supported not allowing people to be with their loved ones when they are hospitalized. I think that is absolutely essential to allow people to do that. I cannot imagine what that would be like, and I am very sorry you went through that. I would be interested to see where you have learned that suicides have increased by 3x because in Canada, in many provinces the suicide rates were actually significantly lower in 2020 compared to previous years data. Ontario’s data is still being analyzed for the 2020 year, but the preliminary data shows no increase between the first 6 months of 2020 compared to the first 6 months in previous years. I would like to note, however, that there is no acceptable number of suicides, but a decrease in number is promising. As for government mandates cancelling surgeries and important appointments, that is unacceptable and I do not support that. I am strictly talking about non- essential activities and gatherings in this post, specifically gathering mask- less in a church, and am not making any arguments for the cancellation of surgeries, or people’s inability to spend time with their hospitalized loved ones. Unfortunately allowing everyone to decide if they want to isolate defeats the purpose of isolation, and covid would still spread, because there are people that have to go to work every single day and interact directly with the public, while fearing for their health. They rely on others, those who visit their place of work (grocery stores etc.) to wear masks and not spread the virus to them as they service the public. We owe it to them to respect their health and the health of those they live with.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/.../covids-deadly.../

CHILDRENSHEALTHDEFENSE.ORG

COVID’s Deadly Toll on Youth: A Sharp Rise in Suicides • Children's Health Defense

ES.

https://www-cbc-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/.../amp/1.5953326...

WWW-CBC-CA.CDN.AMPPROJECT.ORG

Number of youth in hospital after suicide attempt tripled over 4-month period under COVID-19

C Thanks for providing the source. I'll go off the second article, because it's Canadian and directly relates to the COVID-19 response here. I would implore you to consider that if you truly are concerned about an uptick in deaths, then you would demonstrate the same level of care for those that have died from the COVID-19 Pandemic. Considering that COVID deaths have increased by 100% (as it didn't exist prior to just over a year ago. If you want to crunch the numbers (which I hate to do when those numbers represent real people’s lives) then I will do that. The average number of suicide deaths in Canada averages around 4000 per year. (Again, I will never excuse that number as irrelevant because for me, even 1 per year is too high.) This number represents a fraction - 17% of the total number of COVID-19 deaths in Canada over the same period of time. Even if that suicide figure number were to increase by 3x as you say, it would still only represent about half of the deaths that have been caused by COVID-19 here in Canada. If you want to look at the US, we can look at one of their highest suicide rates, in 2018, which was over 48,000 people, that's a lot, but 560,000 people have lost their lives to COVID-19 in the US. That is over 11.5 x the amount. Have you heard about the healthcare workers who have taken their lives because it feels like this COVID-19 overload in their workplace will never end? Because they have seen countless people die unnecessarily in-front of them, unable to do anything to save them? I would ask, what makes one more worthy of caring about than the other? If we can do something to prevent either type of death, or any death at all, shouldn't we do that in a heartbeat? Considering my stance in this argument is strictly whether large maskless gatherings such as churches disobeying mandates should be taking place during the pandemic, I don't see how these types of statistics relate to that specific situation. I will always be an advocate for people being involved in social interaction, as I don't believe 100% isolation is the answer because of it's detrimental effects on mental health. I myself have not held strictly to those rules, I have not spent the past 13 months sitting in my home doing nothing and seeing no-one. The point is that we don't need to be engaging in mass-spreader, mask-less events currently, and if you think that you do, then I would question if you really care about people dying, or if you only care when it pertains to a certain cause (not COVID). I could point out many faults of both the Canadian and Ontario government, that have contributed to a rise of additional problems over the past 13 months. I don't know a single person that agrees with every single rule that the Ontario government has put into place, they're a mess right now. If the Government was trying to attack churches, then they would simply not allow them to meet at all during this stay at home order. You can still go to church, and churches are accommodating to the new rules by expanding their number of services, to allow a larger portion of the congregation to attend. You just have to wear a mask. Which seems to be what many people are angry about. And the argument of allowing people to decide for themselves doesn't stand, because our actions affect others and the people that go to large crowds and spread COVID-19, also go to the grocery store, and also send their kids into school (where up until recent changes, teachers were not allowed to get vaccinated until June). If I knew that my action of wearing a mask out in public saved the life of just one person, that would be wonderful and well worth it. I'm going to sign off from this conversation, because I've really said all I can say on this matter. Is 23,000+ Canadian deaths not enough to wear a mask and not attend large crowds? What number would be enough? Why does a tragedy have to be insanely large before we care? I've attached a photo of a crowd of 20,000 people. Is that enough? I'll leave you with that.

No photo description available.

ES, have a read at this:

https://torontosun.com/.../canadian-experts-research...

TORONTOSUN.COM

Canadian expert's research finds lockdown harms are 10 times greater than benefits

MY if you had read my responses above, you’ll notice I am ONLY discussing about the people that are ranting about having their right to large, maskless gatherings. I have already addressed that in the comment above. I have made that very, very clear. I even made a statement about the Ontario governments response being an absolute mess. I have NEVER advocated for complete social isolation. You can literally still go to church, but you must wear a mask. This entire time I have ONLY been talking about the situation that was addressed in the original post that these comments are under.

Also, the article you have sent me literally advocates for: protecting people in: “crowded conditions (e.g., homeless shelters, prisons, LARGE GATHERINGS”. Exactly my point.

ES So you have said that because I want to worship freely in church and believe that the state should not interfere with Christians worshipping their God in obedience to scripture that I do not care about people dying?!!! This is absolutely unfounded and our family has heard this judgement before from Westney leadership.

Pete Rhebergen

If we know that there is a disease surrounding us that can kill people and if we also know that wearing a mask in public places can significantly reduce this danger and if we then choose not to wear a mask in public places then those sharing those public places with us can be reasonably expected to conclude that our not wearing a mask when we are around them shows our lack of concern for their lives.

Pete Rhebergen

Having said that, let's stop this discussion before someone gets hurt, or hurt worse. I've been tempted to delete this entire post for the growing lack of concern for others that I've seen here.

MH hello M.

I watched this and would comment as follows.

To compare duly elected police officials who are being called to check on a Pastor who is disobeying a medical notice the Gestapo shows a complete lack of Understanding on this mans part.

1) the voice of this pastor does not sound like a kind or peaceful man. He is being confronted for his actions and his reaction says much about him and how he views himself. Above the law.

2) the Gestapo did visit churches. They also were the special police of the Nazi organization so again to compare them to police officers in our country doing their duty (caused by this pastor’s disregard for public health and safety) is absurd.

People like this man in the video M conflate issues today with 1930’s Germany in a weak attempt to justify their view of the government and the rule of law today.

As I said to you previously, comparing Canada to 1930’s Germany demeans us as citizens and diminishes the horrors and atrocities of those times and the acts committed against Jews.

This is another person who has an agenda and conflates the evil tyranny of Hitler with a democratically elected government.

It’s overreaching at best and disgusting at worst because of how little it shows a true understanding of the horrors of that place and time.

The pastor in that video came out of Poland where he lived under Communist tyranny and oppression so he knows it when he sees it. This man is a faithful shepherd who used his voice to keep the wolves away from his flock. I do not agree that it is demeaning to compare what is happening right now to 1930s Germany as that period of time serves as a warning to us today. Concerning our democratically elected government please also keep in mind that we have a Prime Minister who is on record saying that he admires China's basic dictatorship.

MH comparing a medical restriction to Communism is a great leap M.

That’s why perhaps I don’t see your view as a possibility in our Country.

You think one man, our PM, will like Hitler take over the nation. Like 1930s Germany.

An ‘astute’ observer would find no similarities between where Germany was and where we are.

We have a diverse nation of nationalities that provides a strength in diversity that helps prevent a supremacist regime from taking hold.

Our military serves the nation not the PM.

The people here are free and while we have racism we don’t have a unifying hatred as they did.

We also have democracy. Many parties and the freedom to vote.

Some believe we are like the Germans?

I don’t. My grandfather and Great uncle fought to prevent fascism from taking a hold in Europe and it isn’t happen here because Canadians value freedom.

You may not feel it demeans the experience of the Jews and this author doesn’t. If you expand the number of people you read and listen to, especially Jewish people, you might see how and why it is both offensive and demeaning. It diminishes the Nazi atrocities and somehow conflates what this Pastor has experienced and what a Jew at the hands of the Gestapo.

You see it your way.

I have tried to suggest that the view is extreme and misrepresents what is happening.

You can disagree with me as is your right.

Especially here in Canada where that is a protected freedom, unlike Germany in the 1930’s.

I believe as Christians we are called to care for others. In a pandemic when people are getting sick and some are dying how can we help and care for others what does that look like to us? and how do our actions look to others? Do they feel Christ's love through our ignorance of public lockdowns and rules? Does our decision to not wear a mask that is meant to protect others from what we may have come across as loving? There are so many questions we can ask that go along with "WWJD?" right now. I wonder if our Churches could ask these questions and determine actions from there. Do others need unmasked church services right now? Or do they need something else?

Pete Rhebergen

Very nicely put, J, thank you.

I am also glad that we live in a country where we can continue to have church services broadcast to us on many different channels and websites. We are free to pray in public. I don’t see this point in time as Christians being persecuted as Christians can absolutely still worship God. Just in a way similar to people throughout ancient history meeting in small groups and praying at home. I also question why Christians are the only ones who seem to be doing this, other religions who may be less accepted here don’t seem to have trouble transitioning to the online format or obeying laws put in place for a temporary time they still find the time and space to worship their gods

Acts 28:19-20

[19] But because the Jews objected, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar—though I had no charge to bring against my nation. [20] For this reason, therefore, I have asked to see you and speak with you, since it is because of the hope of Israel that I am wearing this chain.”

Caesar is not Lord . This is why the disciples were persecuted , for saying Jesus is Lord (over 90 times in Acts alone ?)

BT that’s correct. The disciples were directed to obey the Govt except when it went against the Gospel.

This isn’t the same situation, rather we are asked not to gather but can propagate the message in person and via other means.

The apostles were preaching and that was illegal.

I've read here where the lives of several Biblical prophets and apostles favourably compared to the actions of a few pastors in Canada. Let me recap for everyone what these prophets and apostles faced:

Elijah

In 1 Kings 16 the Bible tells us that “Ahab the son of Omri did evil in the sight of the LORD, more than all who were before him.”

The account goes on to describe Ahab setting up places of worship and sacrificing his first born son to an idol.

In light of the king's sinfulness, God told Elijah to say tell Ahab “there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.”

In Daniel’s case, the high officials and satraps insincerely complimented King Darius caused him to sign a decree that stated “whoever makes petition to any god or man for thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions.” Daniel 6:7

Peter and John were repeatedly commanded to not preach or teach in the name of Jesus as in Acts 4:18

“So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.”

I am disappointed to read the illegal actions of a few Canadian pastors being favourably compared with the lives of Elijah, Daniel, Peter, and John from the Bible;

Elijah’s life was threatened by Ahab and Jezebel,

Daniel’s life was threatened by Darius' prideful law,

Peter and John’s lives were threatened

Unlike Elijah, Daniel, Peter, and John;

- Neither these pastor's lives nor our lives are being threatened by the provincial government

- We are NOT being told we cannot speak or teach in the name of Jesus

- We are NOT being told that we cannot meet together.

What we are being told is that, because of the Covid-19 pandemic and the recent rise of highly contagious variants, we cannot all meet at once in our church, and those that meet must wear masks. A percentage of maximum occupancy are permitted to meet (many church’s attendance did not reach maximum occupancy before the pandemic so the percentage of congregants that can meet together can be much higher i.e. if the church was half full before the Covid-19 pandemic and 15% of maximum occupancy is permitted to meet, then 30% of those that met before the Covid-19 pandemic can legally meet in one service, if they have three services then 90% of the congregation can meet)

Richard Baxter, a Puritan pastor, lived from 1615 to 1691. He was a pastor at the time when puritans were persecuted, their churches permanently shut down and some puritan pastors were executed. He is a good example of someone that would be wary of any government (or the magistrate as he calls them) edicts pertaining to how and when to worship. In his book “A Christian Directory, or a Sum of Practical Theology” 1673 he answered several hundred questions. Question 109 is particularly germane for us today:

Question 109: May we omit Church-assemblies on the Lord’s day, if the Magistrate forbid them?

His answer has several points, I will highlight the first then move on to a later point he makes.

Answer: 1. It is one thing to forbid them for a time, upon some special cause (as infection by PESTILENCE, fire, war, etc.), and another thing to forbid them statedly or profanely. (Capitalization mine)

He appears to be saying that is it acceptable for the magistrate to forbid meeting for a unique circumstances like pestilence or, in other words, a pandemic.

He goes on in his fourth point

The Assembly and the circumstances of the Assembly must be distinguished:

If the Magistrate for a greater good, (AS THE COMMON SAFETY) forbid Church Assemblies in a time of pestilence, assault of enemies, or fire, or the like necessity, IT IS A DUTY TO OBEY HIM. (Capitalization mine)

Further on in his answer he discusses being required to meet WITH SMALLER NUMBERS (as provincial legislation permits us today) and canceling some meetings:

But it is lawful prudently to do that secretly for the present necessity, which we cannot do publicly, and to do that with smaller numbers, which we cannot do with greater assemblies, yea and to omit some assemblies for a time that we may thereby have opportunity for more: which is not formal but only material obedience.

Surely if a 17th century persecuted puritan can see the propriety for the magistrate to cancel meetings or require smaller numbers,

In the 21st century,

who are NOT being persecuted, and

are far more knowledgeable on viruses,

how they are spread, and

how to avoid them,

...surely we can be as reasonable as Richard Baxter.

Well said!

Pete Rhebergen

My original intent with this post was to encourage we who call ourselves Christians to respond to the closing of Grace Life Church in such a way as to encourage those who are watching us from outside our faith that our Saviour is truly the Only Way. I ask that we remember that purpose; the world IS watching.


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